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tonyhh
Forum Admin
648 Posts |
 Posted - 09 February 2005 : 13:21:24
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This could be an interesting topic for anyone to contribute to.
In the last Xmas magazine I published details of an International 14 dinghy built in 1949 and now resident in Clearwater, Florida.
Does anyone know of or have details of any other very early boats?
I think it will make fascinating reading,
Tony |
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Ben
Captain
240 Posts |
Posted - 09 February 2005 : 15:06:19
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John Inman?
Elton John? |
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john boggis
Rigger
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 10 February 2005 : 12:13:08
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| My Flying 15 was built in 1949; it is sail Number 29. Although Uffa Fox did many designs for Fairey, so far as I am aware Fairey never built a 15. The builder of mine is unknown. So a pretty unhelpful contribution by me to this thread, but there you go! |
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Ancient Mariner
Powder Monkey
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 10 February 2005 : 17:50:24
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Hi,
I thought Fairey built lots of Flying Fifteens - I remember looking at one a couple of years ago in the 400s - but the hull was so rotten you could push your fist through it.
There is a register of FFs on the FF Assn web site - it lists some builders but is far from complete. Another source of FF builder info is (I think)Lloyds Register of Yachts - there used to be lists of various classes after the main yacht section.
Did FF 29 used to be based at Hayling Island? Was her name at one time something like Ffantastic??
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Ancient Mariner
Powder Monkey
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 10 February 2005 : 18:02:41
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ThatFlying Fifteen -
Just had a browse at the FF Assn web site
FF29 is listed with Clark as the builder with the last Measurement Date as 24-Mar-57 and the name as Fantasia. If I was at home I would have had this info to hand - for I have an oil painting of her.
If you are interested I'll take a digital pic of the painting and mail it to you. |
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john boggis
Rigger
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 10 February 2005 : 19:41:48
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Mine is number 28, sorry. She is Femme Fatale (what a coincidence that my Fairey is also FF)
I found her on the Thames where she had spent most of her life. She had been stored for about 20 years when I found her last year.
I have not found any reference to Fairey in the FF register. Fairey made fireflies and other Uffa designs, I think. The atalanta was an Uffa design.
She is two laminates of mahogany with elm ribs and has a very unusual canoe rudder, which is removeable and slides into a slot in the stern decking. The Duke of Edinburgh's 15, Coweslip, which is in Cowes library does not have ribs. I think she was made in Uffa's own yard but having spoke to Mike Dixon, who is the custodian of Uffa's remaining records, it is not thought that mine came from his yard.
JB |
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Ancient Mariner
Powder Monkey
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 12 February 2005 : 14:25:09
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“Elderly Fairies”
More ramblings on the subject as a follow-up to my earlier postings.
The painting I referred to is called "Yachts on a breezy day". Oil on canvas Flying Fifteen UK29 Ffantasia flying the burgee of the Hayling Island Sailing Club, close hauled on port tack. See list in 1969 Lloyds Resister of Yachts page 1099 ? the owner was then T. Ayres. Hayling Island is possibly the coastline in the background. Purchased at auction from Henry Adams, Chichester a few years ago. Approx visible image size 55 x 75 cm (22 x 30in) The stretcher has been reduced in height at some time by about 42mm at the bottom and the canvas turned up the back. The signature (which looks something like MAIDT?) can be seen from the back. I cannot see a date - one might be concealed by the frame/ stretcher. If anyone currently owns this boat and would like a copy then I will happily provide a copy.
As to elderly FF15s, the oldest is I think My Dainty Duck sail no 4(?) - despite the sail number it was apparently the first one built. I recall seeing her at a Southampton Boat Show (perhaps on the SP resins stand) - a good restoration job had been done on her. If my memory is correct she was constructed with a myriad of fine ribs. I think the first few may also have been built this way before Faireys started hot-moulding them. Some other builders produced cold-moulded wooden hulls. One or more of Uffa’s books may shed light on the matter.
I read recently that of the first 300 wooden FF15s only about a dozen are believed to have survived. Any such assertion has got to be highly conjectural - many (dilapidated?) hulls may well survive in gardens, garages and barns. Flying Fifteen 29 (and FF15 28)must indeed be two of the earliest Fairey built 15s to survive - I suspect that the ascription of “Clark” as the builder on the FF15 Association web site list related to the person who fitted out the base hull - shades of Christina/Cristinas here.
I am really not knowledgeable about the history of Fairy’s as boatbuilders. My assumption always was that (apart from Uffa Fox’s airborne lifeboats?) their first commercial venture was the Firefly around 1946. The June 1946 issue of Yachting World carried a review of the prototype Firefly and mentioned Fairy Marine as the builder. So many of these dinghies were built that I would not be surprised to learn that some have survived from the late forties - even older than Elton John?
The Currey family, the National Maritime Museum, the Maritime Museum at Newport on the banks of the Medina, the RYA, the National Firefly Association or the CVRDA (- Classic and Veteran Racing Dinghy Association) and Uffa Fox’s successor; his nephew? Tony Dixon? - he is based in Cowes all probably have opinions. All of these organisations have web sites.
I always thought that the first five or six hundred Fireflies built by Fairey Marine were constructed from Birch rather than Agba. These may not have been as long lasting as the later boats.
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tonyhh
Forum Admin
648 Posts |
Posted - 12 February 2005 : 15:49:18
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Me thinks I have started something here - thanks Ben and all!
Just spoke to Ron MacIntyre and he confirms that Fairey Marine did NOT in fact produce any FFs....they did do quite a few Flying Dutchmen over the years.
Ron started at F.M. as a 'nipper' and went on to become their Works Supt. He remembers clearly his meetings with Uffa who often used to come across to Hamble and comment to Ron what a lovely job they were making of the boats.
Sorry to upset the applecart here but thought we needed to clarify the situation,
Tony |
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tonyhh
Forum Admin
648 Posts |
Posted - 12 February 2005 : 17:57:03
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Re the above ...The 1960 Fairey Review lists the following boats as being produced by Fairey Marine at Hamble..
Sailing Cruisers
Titania, Atalanta and Fulmar
Sports boats
Huntress, Faun and Cinderella
Sailing Dinghies
Flying Dutchman, Jollyboat, Falcon, 505, Albacore, Swordfish, Finn, International 14, Firefly, Duckling and Dinky
A few snippets from the Fairey Review mentions that between 1946 and 1963, the Hamble factory produced over 11,000 boats.
One of the moulds used to make dinghies had produced no fewer than 700 boats, this means it had been subjected to a temperature of 100C and a pressure of 50psi inside the autoclave more than 700 times. Quite impressive for 1960...maybe they just built things better in those days.
Sorry to say that there is no mention at all of Flying Fifteens
Tony
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Adrian
Powder Monkey
United Kingdom
43 Posts |
Posted - 13 February 2005 : 18:10:01
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Tony-
Is there a way of identifying Ducklings etc? |
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Scott Pett
Administrator
United Kingdom
300 Posts |
Posted - 13 February 2005 : 19:11:28
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| Ducklings are especially difficult to identify - they're all speckly brown fluffy things. |
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tonyhh
Forum Admin
648 Posts |
Posted - 14 February 2005 : 18:26:58
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Adrian,
Have spoken to fellow member Nick Eyears for his advice as he has restored his now beautiful Duckling. He didn't find any feathers but he found the hull number located under the rear seat, stamped into the keel.
Nick's hull number is 1516 - Nick rightly explains that they were built in two versions either as a rowing dinghy or a sailing dinghy.
As regards a production list I have never seen one and don't think one was produced as it wasn't included in the huge pile of production lists that Ron McIntyre loaned me. With 1516+ boats built it would have been quite a large list- imagine the size of the Firefly or Albacore list!
Just this minute spoke to Bobbie & Charles Currey and they seem to think a figure just under 2,000 were produced by Fairey Marine but many were also produced by various companies all over the South Coast. The Fairey Marine built sailing version had RED sails. Sadly no lists are available.
Hope this helps,
Tony |
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Ancient Mariner
Powder Monkey
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 15 February 2005 : 13:51:12
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I feel firmly put back in my place <g> What a good job I have been using a pseudonym to hid my ignorance behind!
There was a posting on this forum a while ago by Ed Bremner of the Classic & Vintage Racing Dinghy Association http://www.cvrda.org/ (who at that time owned Fairey Jollyboat J3, J400 Fairey Int 14 K556 & Fairey Firefly F2942) concerning Aluminium lifeboats apparently produced by Faireys at Hayes). Related to this topic, I always thought, encouraged over the years no doubt by sloppy journalism, that Faireys produced, in WW2, some hot moulded wooden airborne lifeboats to Uffa Fox’s design after he had built a number of prototypes over at Cowes. This assumption was I guess encouraged by the oft printed assertion that the Fairey Atalanta was in terms of the hull shape a derivative of these lifeboats. Similarly I had assumed for many years that Faireys (because of the Uffa link) made many of the moulded wooden hulls, completed by others, for F15s. I don’t think I was alone in this incorrect assumption.
The fact that Fairey Marine did not mould F15 hulls probably accounts for the fact that so few of the wooden F15s survive. Early synthetic glues for cold moulding were not a patch on the heat cured stuff used by Faireys which together with the choice of Agba made their hulls long lived.
John Boggis may be interested to read if he has not already done so, the chapter on F15s in Uffa Fox’s “Sailing Boats” published by Newnes in 1959. In the 1969 Lloyds Register of Yachts, page 1099, F15 #28 is listed with L G White as the owner. I GUESS that Uffa Fox probably conceived the F15 in late 1946 (his books are somewhat vague about exact dates) but the first one was not built until 1947. I may have mislead by implying in my last post by implying that F15 #29 survives - she may do or she may have been scrapped long ago - I have no idea as to her fate.
Whilst browsing through some old editions of the Yachting World Annual I came across two brief reviews with line drawings (that I assume are known to the FOC) and may be of passing interest to Christina & Huntress owners:
Yachting World Annual 1959 page 177 Christina
Yachting World Annual 1961 page 172 Fairey Huntress
Interestingly, the Christina review whilst it refers to the hull construction, makes no mention of Fairey Marine. Incidentally, a Yachting World article of 1946 (about Fireflies) describes Fairey Marine as hailing from Hayes, Middlesex. This was presumably where the press releases were manufactured (at head office).
The following extract from pages 129 & 130 of June Dixon’s “Uffa Fox - A personal Biography” published by Angus & Robertson in 1978 may shed some light on the subject of early Fairey dinghies:
By the end of the war Uffa was run down both physically and mentally.
Over and above the extra heavy workload he had carried, he had been
burning the candle in the middle as well as at both ends and, after a
race under the Ocean Racing Club's Rules in one of his airborne
lifeboats, he caught a severe chill which developed into pneumonia.
When he recovered he was for many months without his usual strength
and vigour, and the stresses of post?war Britain bore heavily upon him.
The Government put an immediate clamp?down on boat building for
the home market, and it was a question of export or die. Fortunately
England had some good friends in Bermuda so that, when the Bermuda
Sailboat Club opted to form an International fourteen?footer class, they
129
were swayed by patriotism to order an initial ten boats from Uffa,
against strong competition from the Americans who could offer dinghies
constructed in the new moulded ply. With an export licence, Uffa
experienced little or no difficulty obtaining the timber; but chasing the
fittings, which had been out of production for six years, caused many a
headache.
Another ray of hope was an approach from the Fairey Aviation Group
to design moulded plywood boats for their new marine section. Although
Uffa was not particularly impressed with the medium as he knew it,
having produced a not too successful experimental moulded plywood
airborne lifeboat for carrying under the Warwick aircraft, he was
excited at the project as there was the possibility of a royalty for him
on each of the boats constructed. He also felt the wind of change, and
if there was to be a swing against traditional boatbuilding, he wanted
to be in on the ground floor. Fairey Marine were investing in the best
of equipment, and their boats would not be expected to stand up to a
drop from an aircraft as had Uffa's plywood airborne lifeboat, so in
time he became quite enthusiastic.
The first of Uffa's designs to come off the moulds was the twelve?foot
RYA Firefly. When the Royal Yachting Association invited several
designers to submit plans for a twelve?footer, Uffa, who had already
previously designed dinghies in that range for both Oxford and
Cambridge Universities, submitted the plans of his Cambridge Univer?
sity Twelve Foot One Design. The RYA judged Uffa's design the best
and Fairey Marine, who had set up two autoclaves (large ovens) in
which the moulded plywood boats would be glued together and baked,
received official RYA blessing to go ahead and produce the Firefly by
this method.
The Firefly was selected for the 1948 Olympics and, despite the
timber shortage, permission was given for British helmsmen who
intended participating in the eliminating trials to purchase them.
Hundreds of helmsmen were filled with a sudden desire to sail for their
country only to find, after they had purchased their Fireflies, that they
had urgent commitments elsewhere.”
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tonyhh
Forum Admin
648 Posts |
Posted - 15 February 2005 : 16:43:53
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Dear Mr Mariner,
Thanks for your very informative reply - fascinating, you can't be that 'ancient' Surely?
I know that we will all now be a little bit wiser.
Sadly I am not up on the airborne lifeboat and whether any were produced by FM but will have a dig around and see what comes up. Certainly the press office was at Hayes.
As regards boat drops, the 27' Fisherman was initially intended as a ship's lifeboat and a drop test was arranged between it and a GRP lifeboat made by Watercraft of Hampton. The drop took place in Southampton docks during 1960.
Each boat had the equivalent of 8,000lbs of sandbags simulating 48 passengers strapped to the seats. First the boats were 'crashed' from a crane against the dock wall and then dropped from 12' above the water.
I understand that the GRP boat almost disintergrated after the drop test and the FM boat only cracked a single stringer. Sad to say that the GRP boat won the competition by being cheaper to produce.
A previous test had been done with an uncovered hull aboard a Clan Line Steamer involving a 4 month voyage from Birkenhead to Calcutta via Aden and back to London. Temperatures en route ranged from 40c to 106c. In Ceylon she was lowered and left in the water for 24 hours and show no sign of any leaks.
I also remember Freddie Fry telling me that many years ago ( I guess in the 50s)they left a Firefly submerged in the mud off Hamble for a year! This was done to prove what a fantastic product they made. They brought her out exactly a year later, cleaned her off, put her mast and sails back and within a couple of hours she was back sailing on the Hamble and the bilges remained as dry as a bone. Proof indeed to a fine product
Tony |
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Grahame
Powder Monkey
United Kingdom
3 Posts |
Posted - 03 March 2005 : 11:57:41
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The airborne liferaft was documented in Motorboat & Yachting May 31 1968 as an extract from a forthcoming book "Seamanlike sense in powercraft" by Peter Davies. I inherited a copy with the boats documentation
Grahame Hill
Fairey Atalanta A65 Joann
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tonyhh
Forum Admin
648 Posts |
Posted - 03 March 2005 : 21:47:51
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Hi Grahame
I too have a copy of this excellent book written by Uffa Fox...it shows the Airborne Lifeboat in both its MkI and MkII versions. Sadly just browsing thru the text I could see no reference to Fairey Marine making any.
Under each of the diagrams it just said that the designer and builder of each was Uffa Fox
Tony |
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The oldest Fairey known
